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nadiving@frontiernet.net  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:13:23 AM(UTC)
nadiving@frontiernet.net

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Posts: 38

Currently:

10 year bond: 2.98%  (14 month low)

5 year bond: 1.79%  (all time low)

2 year bond: 0.61%

If I remember correctly, between the fall of 2008 and the spring of 2009 (when the credit crunch was at it's worst), the 10 year was @ 3%; the 5 year was @ 2%; and the 2 year was @ 1%.

What is the bond market telling us?  Is the bond market predicting another near term market meltdown?

Personally, I have been skeptical of the recovery. From the articles I have read in the WSJ there just seems to be too many areas of the economy that are having problems. (Mortgages, Biz loans, pensions, jobs, state budgets, etc.)

Personally, I have been wary of predicting any kind of recovery in my SSG's. I have always chosen the lowest P/E multiples (or close to the lowest) from not only the past fives years; but, over the past 10 years. I have also used the recent market low prices (either September 2008 or March 2009) for my low price on my SSG's.

I know the effect that inflation has on P/E ratios. I am concerned about future inflation with the current level of money supply.

What effect does deflation have of P/E's?  Does deflation deflate P/E ratios as well?

Personally, I think this is a time to be very very conservative when applying judgements on the SSG.

Nick

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stevegi  
#2 Posted : Thursday, July 8, 2010 8:13:47 PM(UTC)
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I concur, now is the time to be very conservative with SSG judgements.

Steve Gideon

 
DannyM  
#3 Posted : Thursday, July 8, 2010 10:26:19 PM(UTC)
DannyM

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Please explain in more detail

stevegi  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 9, 2010 3:56:35 PM(UTC)
stevegi

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I was just attempting to respond to the question Nick raised about the effect of deflation on P/E ratios.

The chart I attached, which was produced by Crestmont Reseach, shows that both inflation and deflation deflate P/E ratios.There is a great deal of additional information about P/E ratios and how they vary on the Crestmont web site.

Steve

 
nadiving@frontiernet.net  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, July 13, 2010 6:19:06 AM(UTC)
nadiving@frontiernet.net

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Posts: 38

Steve: Thanks for your chart regarding P/E's and the effects of Inflation and Deflation. It seems from the chart the the effect of Inflation on P/E is more apparent; whereas Deflation is more insidious.

Jack: I too own real estate that I rent - in New York State. I have had a house to rent on the market for 6 months. I had 15 showings; and, yet no one qualifies. All prospective tenants complain about the rent being too high; yet, I can't reduce the rent because the biggest expense are my taxes.  Having read several articles in the WSJ, I think it's going to take another 10 years before there is any improvement in the real estate market. The biggest problem is the shadow inventory of foreclosed (or soon to be foreclosed; and, delinquent) properties. (There was a great article by Floyd Norris in the NYTimes earlier this year regarding R/E securitization and the building of the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. The Waldorf Astoria issued it's prospectus for investor financing on September 1st, 1929. The investors could not get anyone to buy out their investment until 1942 when Conrad Hilton began buying up the Waldorf bonds for less then 5 cents on the dollar!!!  The investor's had to wait 12 years before they were relieved of their financial burden - and they lost more then 95% of their investment.)

I am definitely looking at stocks over real estate right now.  But, I am being very conservative and cautious.

Regards

Nick

gerlach  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:33:27 AM(UTC)
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Posted By Steve Gideon on 07/09/2010 12:13 AM

I concur, now is the time to be very conservative with SSG judgements.

Steve Gideon

 

I found the attachment interesting and wanted to learn more about it, so I did a little digging and found an updated version of the graph with some additional information here:
http://www.crestmontresearch.com/pdfs/Stock%20Inflation%20&%20PE.pdf

The scatter plot doesn't look any different, but there is an interesting graph of the history of inflation trends compared to P/E Ratios -- see the attached. I could quibble with the presentation of data, but I do think you can see some correlation. When inflation is high, P/E Ratios tend to be low. Since 1900, however, the inflation rate fluctuated quite regularly until 1990, when inflation started its longest period of relative stability (until recently), so we haven't seen a period of stable economic growth with which we could compare P/E Ratios. Recently, the average P/E Ratio has fallen alogn with economic growth, but I don't see any megatrend on the graph that would indicate what is likely to happen in the future.

I'd certainly like to hear from some others with their thoughts on this!

nadiving@frontiernet.net  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 4, 2010 6:11:48 AM(UTC)
nadiving@frontiernet.net

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Posts: 38

WSJ article: 8/2/2010: Money & Investing section

Article title: "Big Investors Fear Deflation" by Gregory Zuckerman

Bill Gross of PIMCO is mentioned quite frequently.

Here are some selections from the article:

"Some of the worlds leading investors are becoming more worried about deflation and are reshaping their portfolios..."
"Deflation isn't a topic of intellectual curiosity, it's happening, says Mr. Gross."
"Many of these star investors don't see extended deflation as a sure bet and predict that...the Federal Reserve...will take radical steps to arrest the decline."
"Preliminary signs of deflation are spurring Mr. Gross...to take on larger positions of interest-bearing investments such as bonds and dividend paying stocks."
"The US economy has to grow north of 2% to avoid deflation, and we're right around there, says Mr. Gross."


"Deflation is seen as pernicious and hard to address once it sets in. Falling prices can make businesses and consumers reluctant to spend and invest, huring profits and crippling the economy. It can be caused by a drop in the money supply and credit, declining spending and high unemployment."

"In a period of deflation, each dollar of debt becomes more onerous as wages and prices fall; during an inflationary period, the value of debt drops."

"There is still a big problem for investors preparing for deflation: It is hard to find attractive investments when it arises. Mr. Gross urges investors to focus on cash flows that are relatively certain such as dividends (editor: of quality companies...) and interest from bonds of quality companies."

(Editorial comment: - And look for companies with no debt.)


And for those in Stock Central who are thinking about investing in Gold or Silver:

Barrons: July 26, 2010
Article title: "A Contrarian's View of Gold" by Alan Abelson.

Quoting Peter Berezin from Bank Credit Analyst:

"Disinflation is gold's archenemy. Over the next few years, Deflation is the biggest risk."

Editor's comment: Wouldn't Silver also be effected in the same way by Deflation?

I wish there were a chart showing the History of Deflation Trends and P/E ratios. (I did not look at Doug's link to Crestmont Research yet...)

nadiving@frontiernet.net  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 5, 2010 5:39:03 AM(UTC)
nadiving@frontiernet.net

Rank: Advanced Member

Posts: 38

Great Article, Jack. It was obvious to me that if Mr. Gross was worried about Inflation only 3 months ago, what would prevent Mr. Gross from being worried about something else 3 months in the future? How often will he change his mind?

As an intellectual exercise, I'm still wondering if there is a chart/graph out there that shows the relationship between Deflation and P/E ratios.

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