StockCentral :: Community

Join in on the discussion with other like-minded investors in our community forums. Learn about the fundamental investing methodology and participate in educational workshops in the Investing forums, stay up-to-date on StockCentral news and make suggestions to the StockCentral team in Central Square, and discuss your favorite stock or recent market news in our A-Z ticker-based forums.

Subject: 3M Corp.
Prev Topic Next Topic
Note: You must be a StockCentral subscriber and logged in to post messages.
Author Messages

Patrick Landers


06/11/2008 10:07 PM  

Does anyone own, or is there anyone watching 3M?  It has had a solid 5 years growth and Dividend return. Please look at the attached SSG and work sheet and give me your thoughts. Thanks.

Pat Landers


Attachment: MMM.doc
Attachment: mmm ssg.pdf


stephen phillips


06/17/2008 8:38 PM  

Pat:  Being (perhaps) overly conservative I'm a member of the "20% off the current price" club when establishing my low price P/E... especially with possible higher inflation on the horizen. 

You may not want to consider a low P/E ratio of 11.8.  But, I would urge you to search for Doug Gerlach's 4/16/08 thread entitled "Where are stock P/E ratios headed" & maybe consider something between your 14.5 and 11.8 for added safety.

Steve


Patrick Landers


06/17/2008 9:44 PM  

Steve,

Thanks for the feed back. I usually look at Pert B for guidance of high and low PE, and make sure that my high PE is lower than or equal to the lowest high PE in the past 5-10 years. I make sure the low PE is lower than the lowest PE of the last 5-10 years. I also look at the  Big Charts on the  Better Investing web site to see  what the PE has been for the past  decade.Again, I make the high PE lower than the lowest high PE, and the low PE lower than the lowest PE. This has kept me out of trouble, except when Co.'s sales and earnings slow(don't meet expectations)-the PE cna drop pretty rapidly when that happens.

Your method is to reduce the PE 20% from it's lowest level? or from the current level? How has that worked for you? Have you missed good buys due to being too conservative, or have you been able to buy good stocks at a better price?

In my SSG, I used $65 as the estimated low price, which was 10% lower than the 52 week low price. That works out to a PE of 12.8. Our SSGs probably look very similar; the main difference would be in the projected averave return.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Pat


Attachment: mmm chart.doc


stephen phillips


06/18/2008 10:07 AM  

Pat:  No question that my being conservative has reduced my ability to pick up some good buys.... and MMM may be one of them. 

While that certainly is a function of my age/risk tolerance/etc. it is also a function of my remembering the late '70s when inflation brougt P/E ratios down to 7-8 from their decades long averages of 15-16.

Morningstar has MMM at 5 stars with a buy of US$87; MI has a PAR of 13; Fortune lists it as one of 40 stocks to retire on; etc.  So, it's certainly a solid pick.  It's just for me thinking about the effects of possible inflation, recession, stagflation, continuing credit cruch, continuing housing problems, etc. over the next 2-3 years MMM currently falls slightly below my cut-off point... and I would hope to buy it in the US$69-70 range... someday... maybe.

Just one man's opinion.  Good luck.

Steve


Henri Russell


11/15/2008 1:39 PM  
Patrick,
Our club is looking at 3M for our meeting next month. The SSG still looks good, with our projected low of $48. What are your thoughts during this roller coaster stock ride?
Henri

Patrick Landers


11/16/2008 3:03 PM  

Hey Henri,

 

Thanks for the question. As you know, 3M had a very good Q3 08 and performed better than I projected on my SSG. The questions we need to ask are: 1.Has the stock market stabilized at the current level, or will it drop lower? If it drops lower, it may take 3M with it. 2. With the current economic slow down affecting not only the US but also Europe and Asia, will 3M be able to grow sales and earnings enough to make shares purchased today more valuable in the future?

 

It is very difficult to answer #1. It does appear that the S&P 500 index may have found support at the 850 level. Every time the market hits that level, it bounces upward. 3M hit a severe recent low on 10-9-08 as did the S&P. 3M has not returned to that low since and is actually 18% higher than that level. So 3M has performed better than the S&P. If you look at the price chart for 3M and the S&P at Yahoo finance, you notice that the price of  the 2 were moving in tandem until 10-18-08; 3M has gone up and S&P has stayed in a narrow range since then. The fact that shares of 3M are rising, and that the S&P may have found a support level are encouraging. (I attached the chart .)

 

To answer #2, I first looked at how the Co did during the last recession in 2001. Sales growth for 3M went from 6.8% in 2000, to -3.9% in 2001, to 1.6% in 2002. Sales were more robust in 2003 and the following years. (Sales have actually averaged 7.5% growth for the past 5 years. Much of this growth was from sales outside the US. The sales have also been positively affected by the devaluation of the US dollar in recent years. That appears to be reversing.) I adjusted my SSG (believing we are in a recession) to 0% growth for 2009, and 6.5% annual sales growth after that. That gives me an annual sales growth rate of 5.2% for the next 5 years.  I also lowered my high PE to 19. The high PE has been slowly decreasing for the past 5 years and may continue to decrease if the recession is worse than “typical”. I lowered my low PE to 10 which is near the level it attained at the 52 week severe market low price of the stock. Even with the average low PE of 10, I had to lower the estimated low Price to $51. (15% below it’s recent 52 week low price.) Please review my SSG and let me know what you think.

 

I listened to the Q3 08 earnings report. The Co did not offer sales guidance for Q4 or for 2009. They feel that due to the economic volatility, sales predictions are impossible. Management does expect Operating Margins to be above 20%; it was 23.2% in Q3 08. There should be better guidance from the Co. at an upcoming investors meeting scheduled for 12-9-08.

 

I currently own shares of 3M. I always look to add to my holdings when a Co reports it’s quarterly results if the results are good and there is expected growth in the future; and assuming I can buy them at a somewhat discounted price. That may all be true for 3M. It is selling now at a PE that is the lowest the stock has ever traded for. The Co will most likely have a difficult year in 2009, but may grow after that. If you and your club have 3 to 5 years to hold the shares, they may be a good buy now. I am going to wait until I see what management says about 2009 at the investors call on 12-9-08. That will also give me a better sense of whether the market has support at this level or if it still is heading lower. I attached an updated SSG and a 3M/S&P price chart. Let me know what you think.

 

One last point that I am sure your club has discussed is the dividend yield the stock provides. At this price, the yield is 3.2% which is better than keeping the money in a savings acct. or money market account.

 

Pat Landers

 


Attachment: mmm ssg.pdf
Attachment: 3M chart.pdf


stephen phillips


11/16/2008 4:22 PM  

Re: Question #1:

850 support level on the S&P 500 may be good for nibbling & establishing a base position.  But, there could well be another leg down as we continue to hear bad news.  Merrill Lynch is suggesting a 720-780 range which based on their projected earnings of US$60 & assuming a P/E ratio of 12.5 = 750.  Last '08 projected earnings I saw from S&P was US$48.52 on 10/14.  If we use ML P/E ratio of 12.5 = 606.

It's just two "straws in the wind" & nobody really knows but, I'm not comfortable assuming an 850 level for anything major.

Steve

Note: You must be a StockCentral subscriber and logged in to post messages.



ActiveForums 3.7
 



Register today for a free 45-day trial!

 

Investment Club Tools Investor Advisory Service Historical data by Historical prices by Instant Stock Analysis by About ICLUBcentral Inc.
myiclubBadge.gif IASBadge.gif HemscottBadge.gif CSIBadge.gif TakeStockBadge.gif ICLUBcentralBadge.gif